3D applications 2007 comparisons table

[bsm3d]

TDT3D a french CG network and also Softimage|XSI french forum users published an article about the 3D applications 2007 comparisons table.

This article are in english and maybe usefull to quickly check somes comparisons features.

http://www.tdt3d.com/articles_viewer.php?art_id=99

[McNistor]

Post deleted by me: irrelevant comment

[Adrian Lazar]

interesting article, very hard comparison to make!
- fluids in XSI very good? did i miss something?
- particles in XSI very good? good i think would be more appropriate.
- import/export the dark side?? with crosswalk i don't think so...
- modeling excellent for 3dsmax and just very good for xsi? i think it should be exactly the oposite... i mean, c'mon, you can't even tweak a 200 000 poly object in 3dsmax...
- where is houdini?
+ some subjective conclusions

[3dtutorial]

This is not "new" news -- rather it is an old article that was published some time ago (if I'm not mistaken).

I clearly remember that not long after its initial publication is was pretty much dismissed as being largely inaccurate and misleading by most.

More or less a waste of time in my view.

Cheers,

J

[bsm3d]

Hello,

Thanks for your feedbacks, i really appreciated.

If my article is accurate or not ? mmm I think it's not so inaccurate as someone said...so each point of view is respected.

This article is a long task done by myself and it's my point of view. You like or not, when I wrote it that's not a wasted time for me ;) I just sharing my own experience...

If I don't speak about houdini it's because I don't know it enough, I only know Houdini since 9.0 coming more open to artists and have one of the best fluids and particles.

I'm not a pro modo as others softwares.

About Imports / Exports, compared to others applications XSI is a poor parent. Now with Crosswalk things coming better (since 2.5) but in Import you are quit limited...

No vrml, no x3d, no dwg, no dxf , no STL,... Export no Rla, no Rpf, no HDR, no vrml, no x3d,...

About fluids, you are right ! I do a mistake because I get good result with Particles fluids in XSI, so it's no for sure Maya Nucleus, RealFlow or even Blender...and i don't speak abotu what's i see on Houdini ! i updated to Good.

I fix my article and prefer about this !

About modeling you are right, XSI is strong in poly and Nurbs, Nurbs are really better than the crap in 3dsmax ! but, an dit's maybe my old 3dsmax use who do that's, when I started to model in xsi I found it's no so clear as in 3dsmax...

All comments are of course my point of view and in this case are subjective !

And i repeat I shared my work to community, and as i said in my article :

This table isn't intended to be complete with all softwares features available but try to surround the common today 3D cg artist tasks.

he is always users who are defending their favourite applications opposed to others, this comparison table isn't writed in this way, I don't wont here to push an application more than others and had try to stay independant / free from softwares editors, of courses each softwares editor naturally prefer to be the best, so for now there is not, all is bad and good, that's depend on what's you want to do and your working area.

[miga]

at least basic vrml: http://www.migaweb.de/downloads.php?id=18 :)

[AceMastermind]

You can also get a dxf importer for XSI HERE (http://www.highend3d.com/xsi/downloads/plugins/utility_external/import/dxf-importer-for-XSI-4354.html).

[miga]

Nice to see that you still update the list! You could add the ModTool as a PLE version (its free and hast basic features of XSI)

[bsm3d]

Hi,

Sure I update it to be the most accurate as I get feedback...

Thanks for VRMl and DXF link !

A PLE is normally a full featured release with watermark and for personnal use...no ? Do you really think Modtool is a PLE ? In my Mind ModTool is a full featured game ressources editor without render, etc...

[j3st3r]

I have lot of colleagues migrating from Max, and they are most satisfied with XSI. A lot better, lot faster, and without doubt the most straightforward modeling. Their productivity increased a lot. And I was also a fanatic and very active Max user, so I have a professional experience basis for comparison

[Atyss]

bsm3d, thanks for the effort. That's quite a big job you've done there.

Just a few notes:
- you can't possibly state that the vue xStream plugin for XSI is excellent. It's impossible! EVERYONE I talked to as well as me and another td at my previous company only had problems!

- what's the difference between the SDK and scripting entries?


Cheers
Bernard

[mayaTitan]

well maybe it is not excellent but it is best one out there

@topic
i thik the comparison table is not objective

[bsm3d]

Thanks for comments ;) yes that's a big job I haved done with this testing sheet.

This is my fast reply about SDK vs Scripting :

SDK is more programmer in depth targeted, scripting is more users friendly targeted.

This is my long reply :-)

Scripting is a quick way to adds somes features to a softwares without hard learning and programming. per eg. 3dsmax is Maxscript, Maya is MEL, XSI is VB, Jscript, LightWave is L-Scripts,....

Now as all are going to support Python and as Python is more robust than usually each softwares homemade scriptings futur is bright for TD and users own dev.

Python is a robust solution to unify this task and the best / robust applications support it as Maya, XSI, Houdini, Blender,...

3dsmax is today always not supporting Python ! Red card !

Scripting can do quick and not so much cpu task intensive "plug-ins" "customs Tools", this is usually where is the limit about scripting. To know how-to scripting in 3D softwares you must learn the scripting syntax and commands, not the c++ and libraries in depth.

With SDK you can access to C++ and libraries to creating real plug-ins, optimised, normally well integrated with external applications and faster in execution than "basic" scripting.

SDK must normally give you all you must need to know to access to the heart of the applications or interconnet with others applications (like zbrush, photoshop, render engine,...) this is harder to do with scripting and mor erobust / stable with real plug-ins.

About Vue :

First I agree with you about xStream (I don't speack about infinite who is not connected with 3D tested applications) was a bugged and unstable one !

Since version 6.50 e-onsoftware worked hard to improve stability and do better connections with 3D applications.

As I know Vue very well and us it, I do some test and all the days jobs with, since 6.50 all is really better ! the first we must know is vue only working in 3D applications in OpenGL mode, many 3dsmax users don't switch from directX to OpenGL, in this case you can't see anything from vue in 3D applications !

Now about my test, the more robust is XSI !! Lightwave and Cinema4D do the jobs well, Maya is Hard to use and 3dsmax an holy crap display ! 3dsmax and OpenGL are really on others planets !

About OpenGL, e-onsoftware must do an hard job ! OpenGL is not the same implementation on Windows, Linux (Vue is not on Linux) and OSX, and to complicated the thing, Cinema4D use OpenGL a bit tricked, the couple Cinema4D on OSX with Vue is a Nightmare !!

As you can check out my Vue integration test page, XSI is one of the best working with Vue !

- Text article : http://www.tdt3d.com/articles_viewer.php?art_id=94
- Screencast live test : http://www.tdt3d.com/articles_viewer.php?art_id=115

Before Vue 6.50 and XSI 6.02, the best in render speed was 3dsmax and in display feedback Lightwave.

3dsmax speed is because I know well how-to optimise Mentalray with Vue, but it's impossible to working / switch between Vue and 3dsmax, display is again a pur crap !

I hope that's help to understand more how T test this big 3d softwares bags :-)

[bsm3d]

@topic
i think the comparison table is not objective

What's point do you not found Objective ?

[Atyss]

I see what you intend to mean about scripting vs sdk. But you are using the 3ds max terminology and I think that terminology is inaccurate. Developing is not all about c++, you can do applications and very large projects with a scripting language.

Scripting might look easier because things like memory management and pointers are hidden from the user and you don't have to compile manually. It might sound less serious because it does not run as fast as c++ for calculation intensive things. But don't get fooled: it is still programming in its own right, requires time to learn the language, and demand substantial efforts with logic design.

I think what would be more accurate is saying scripting vs c/c++ rather than scripting vs SDK.



Also these statements caught my curiosity:

""Now as all are going to support Python and as Python is more robust than usually each softwares homemade scriptings futur is bright for TD and users own dev.""

How do *you* define robustness in a scripting language? And why do you say that Python is more robust than the other "homemade" language"?



""Python is a robust solution to unify this task and the best / robust applications support it as Maya, XSI, Houdini, Blender,...""

Ouf, can you rephrase that? What task? Unification of what? What do you mean exactly by best/robust application support?

If you're thinking that being able to code in Python in every software will allow to use the same code in all of these, then I'm affraid you are mistaken. Just like the GUI version of the applications, the scripting interfaces are all unique, and require a unique approach. No matter what, you have to program the thing with every of them.




VUE


Here's a few lines I translated from the article you posted:

""Next comes Softimage with a render time slightly higher than lightwave, however it is catastrophic, XSI does not render lighting in a coherent way despite tens of tests and adjustements! The image above might be faster to render, but is not close at all to the original, red card!""

First of all, you're using a -2/0 for anti-aliasing. I can tell you from experience that you'll probably never use such a setting in real world. I think the bare minimum is 0/2, and oftenly the minimum is 1. Also you did not include your treshold settings, which have a huge impact on the render time, as well as the filter settings. Until you provide those settings, I think your comparison is invalid.


Now you state several times that XSI doesn't handle well the Vue lighting..... isn't that a critical issue for you? How can you say it's an excellent integration??? For me, not playing well with the other software's lighting mean it's useless.

I'd like you to try this and report back to us: install Python, and install the pywin32 extensions so that you can see Python in XSI. Then start XSI, open the Vue toolbar, and launch Vue from there. Now in that Vue, open the Python console. Does that cause a crash of both Vue and XSI? For us it did, meaning that we could not run a Python script in Vue while using it through XSI. Meaning that the plugin was therefore useless.

I hope you realize this is a HUGE issue. Considering the price of Vue xStream (which I think is absolutely OBSCENE), and the fact that we could not use the XSI plugin because it crashed with our pipeline, and that somehow we could not match pixel perfect cameras between the two softwares, do you have the slightest idea how much time we had to spend on figuring out an effective way to pipe out the content of Vue to XSI? It was roughly 3 weeks of full-time work for two TDs and a modeler (and trust me, that was not a pleasant 3 weeks). That's a lot of money to get those shots done.........

The XSI Vue plugin offers an interface that allows you load Vue sample scenes in XSI. We found out that most of these sample scenes are actually NOT included, you have to purchase them separately (something like 15$). What the?? Thank god we managed to please the director with the available libraries.

Also if you export a mi file with a Vue scene, all you get is a call to a Vue application. So you need Vue installed on your system to render such an mi file.

Oh and customer support is aweful. Just plain aweful, that was staggering.


Anyway, Vue and its XSI plugin have to come a long way to impress me. Until then, it's a toy. A great toy, but a toy nonetheless.


Cheers
Bernard

[bsm3d]

Just a quick reply before a long coming :-)

For sdk you are right I probably must said : c/c++

for Vue, the first article you extract sentences are from Vue 6 and XSI 6.2...with this this is catastrophic :-)

From Vue 6.50 this is the best one ! e-on worked hard from vue 6 to 6.50 and xsi support.

So my first language is french, I maybe wrong explained in english :/ Mais en français je pourrais t'expliquer dans tous les détails mon point de vue ;)

[bsm3d]

Hi again,

About Python :

With learning Python syntax and way of work you are more flexible / cross softwares with this language than learning own softwares scripting one.

I know a script you do in XSI can't run into max or maya even it's Python, but jump from xsi to max or something others using python give an advantage to start scripting as you know how python syntax etc are working...

For me Python is one of more growing language / scripting in CG applications and give the users an easy way to get back some portion of code from one and adapting to an other is more easy (a kind of work unification) than try get back Maxscript to MEL...This is my point of view...

You can found a lot's of help on Python, running on many os, improved language...

All this point is for me an advantage to others scripting languages.

About Vue Tadadam :-)

From vue xStream 6.x to 6.5 there is a tons of bugs fix. in my first article I tested Vue 6.0 with XSI 6.02, this is an unusable couple !

XSI don't get back the Vue sunlight at right, a lot's of crash, etc. (XSI is not the faulty, it's xStream who don't do the job right !)

From Vue 6.5 with XSI 6.02 all the things goes better, render time is quite fast, and big bugs I founded are out...

About you vue test with XSI I will trying it. Of course it's a big bug I don't now before and of course Vue is not cheapest as bryce or terragen...I understand right you don't like it for this kind of bugs ! Do you contact e-onsoftware support to report this ?

About suport at e-onsoftware you are right the online support is a nightmare but when send an email or give a phone call, things is really better !

About samples not free, click on the little Ghost in file browser and all commercial add-ons samples is hidden, i use this to know what's I have on my harddisk !

Many users using Vue Infinite, not xStream. they render ressources (plants, sky, clouds,...) their needs with G-buffer,etc and export to compositing softwares in EXR or RPF.

sorry if my words or sentences are not always clear, I'm french speaker...

don't hesitate to continue this discution ;)

note : I'm not working at e-onsoftware or have action in this company !

[norvman]

Having modeled in Lightwave (for over 8 years) Max (for almost 3years) and XSI now for about 3 years.... I would have to state that Max was the worst of the 3 in modeling... it was just klunky.... Lightwave was really what I first learned on and have more experience in than anything... but it still does not have a good work flow like XSI does.... XSI is different in it's feel but once you get use to it and practice with it a bit you begin to understand why it is different and why it is better... I have had to unlearn a lot of 'bad' modeling habits (work arounds) that I picked up in Wave....
I have yet to spend any time with Modo ... but I know others who certianly would put it way way way above Lightwave...

I personally don't know anybody who has acually used these softwares for modeling for any length of time that would give Lightwave and 3DSMax an Excellent! over Modo and XSI.... I know guys that like Modo better than XSI and guys that like Ligthwave better than XSI (because they don't have time to learn XSI's 'weirdness' in model handleing as they term it) ... but Max? hummm that's very strange that anyone would think Max excellent at modeling...???
maybe it's just that it's so much better than Maya...(which I my modeling experience in Maya has been very limited so I couldn't judge)

No offense....
but it's just that I have heard so many other professional users opinions on the subject... that's all...


My $.02

[Helli]

Just a little feedback about your list:

Maya Interface --> Like a Forge, flexible and powerful !
I would add that its not intuitive and messed up.

And I would higher the learning path for maya. like <2 months for max/xsi and <3 months for maya.

Top unique feature
Gator --> thats not unique anymore, Cinema has Vampire wich is quite the same.
Crosswalk --> I wouldn't add this as unique XSI Feature because its a standalone application for import/export not a XSI Feature.

The Dark Side:
Add "No unique feature Developement" for Max.

Edit:
About the post before. It's true Max isn't really handy when it comes to modelling, but there are really good modelling Plugins like Polyboost (i think thats the name) wich make max not bad for modelling. If you only take max without plugins I totally agree that there is NO way it is better for modelling then XSI.

[simesf]

I thought I'd jump in with this. I used Lightwave for my business for over 10 years, Max for around 8, various packages including Raydream, Carrara, Silo, Truespace plus some others I no longer remember the name of. Currently I use Modo and Silo for modelling, Zbrush for, well, the Zbrush pass and recently I bought Softimage for animation/texturing and rendering. I use mainly Modo for modelling since for an old Lightwave hack it feels more intuitive and fluid. Max was forced upon me by the nature of the work I do and always felt like a bloated Jack of all Trades but 'it must be the best because it's the most expensive' - that mentality seemed to prevail for a few years before the Maya led price wars. Lightwave now feels like a bag of bolt ons.

I chose Softimage because it has the reputation of being world class for animation, stable, very good for modelling, stable, having a good native renderer, stable, the texturing seems powerful, stable, the amount of learning materials for it (a big factor) is good and it has the reputation of being stable.

The days when I would champion one 3d package over another are long gone. Why would I? No one ever gave me software for free. The days when I would use just one package for everything are also long gone. Use the tool I can use the best for any one particular job is the way to go. Pipeline and workflow matter so much these days. That's where I'm starting to get a little concerned with Softimage. I hear stories about it's import facilities being limited. That's a big worry. I was reading a thread over on ZBrush Central about it being difficult to tranfer displacement maps into XSI. That's also a big worry. Given it's my work I will readily fork out for anything that makes the translation process painless but I've been bitten too many times by software that fails to do what it claims. I shall be posting elsewhere in a moment on this site asking for advice about importing.obj files and the problems I'm having.

I know I'm learning XSI at the moment so there is so much I don't know, but every design studio I've been in has a dusty shelf in the corner containing expensive software that the overworked designers didn't get the time to adopt because the teething problems combined with a deadline meant going back to the old ways of working.

[norvman]

The days when I would champion one 3d package over another are long gone

I would definately second that motion of the board...


It's true Max isn't really handy when it comes to modelling, but there are really good modelling Plugins like Polyboost (i think thats the name) wich make max not bad for modelling. If you only take max without plugins I totally agree that there is NO way it is better for modelling then XSI.

Yes I have heard of Polyboost and honestly seen lots of really good modeling stuff done in max...

but it's interesting to note just how good a modeler XSI is without a plugin.... Still not saying it is the greatest modeler out there... I have been very impressed with the little bit that I have messed with Modo.... (also being an old Lightwave Hack)

but just in the context of the review.... The modeling statements just seemed off center from the reality of it ....

[bsm3d]

Hi All,

Thanks for all feedback and constructive reply...

About the Python / Vue / XSI crash, I would like to know myself how and why this crashing, so I try to crash it =)

I agree XSI crash with Vue and Python standalone package, after I contacted e-onsoftware to know more about this, here is e-onsoftware reply (I translater in english, sorry if I'm not english good writing) :

Vue use a modified version of Python, and the fact is when there is an other release of python installed on the same computer like Pywin32, Vue get the "vue Python" and that's the crashing cause !

Is this "Normal" that's Vue and XSI crash when there is use of the two different python package.

Use only one Python at the same time for now...

For Modeling :

I used also LW along time for it's organic modeling tools ;) In the article modeling test was quickly done in 3dsmax than others softwares, with no modeling plug-ins.

I agree XSI is really good for modeling and Nurbs are far better than the max crap one !

But XSI do something in different way, that's not a bad way, just different...eg. In max, maya, modo, lw, c4d,... to add a cube click and drag the cube where you want, in XSI you must define cube parametesr and after place it where you want, it's a losing time procedure for many modeler who tested and give me feedback for the article. (I know you can drag and place the cube even with parameters panel open, so you have a panel to move out your eyes...)

An others eg. To add Arc or circle,... shape XSI place it in the same way even you selected an other view to place it, liek max do...you can't draw it directly also...

Can you render a spline in XSI ? I don't think but maybe I'm wrong and there is an option to do that's ?

No Shell Modifier, No Attach shape,...

Maybe I'm wrong ! but that's this kind of thing that's get me more time to do modeling in XSI than max or Lw, modo,...

So Apposed to this XSI have very strong tools like the M key, draw spline, add primitive, continue draw spline,...max can't simply do that's.

About Motor and Vampire :

Sorry I don't know it, I will update my article !

About CrossWalk :

You are right again and if I would be correct I must remove it as a plug-in / external software...but in the same time crosswalk is free and a needed tools to import / export model...mmm don't know if I must remove it but to be correct i will do !

[coolroy]

why "Nodes materials" in LW is Excellent!, but in XSI is just Yes?
I can be mistaken but nodes was first appear in LW9. XSI has render tree all the time.

[bsm3d]

why "Nodes materials" in LW is Excellent!, but in XSI is just Yes?
I can be mistaken but nodes was first appear in LW9. XSI has render tree all the time.

you are right and I create 3 nodes-based categories to be clearest as possible :

- Workflow
- Materials
- Compositing

Who is for me the most 3 used nodes area...

[norvman]

in XSI you must define cube parametesr and after place it where you want, it's a losing time procedure for many modeler who tested and give me feedback for the article.

Maybe a long time for the first cube... but Ctrl D and you have another cube Ctrl D another cube Ctrl D another Cube....

I do not understand your statement above in light of the facts...

Can you render a spline in XSI ? I don't think
But that's not a 'modeling' issue correct?

No Shell Modifier, No Attach shape,...

Correct on the Shell Modifier... (even though their is an excellent 'free' plugin for that (Tiny Thickness from Kim Aldis)

Not sure what your saying about Attach Shape....

in XSI pick one shape... pick second shape.... Create>PolyMesh>Merge(orBlend).... hit Delete button...

4 moves in XSI compared to 6 or 7 in Max (as I remember it, when using Attach Shape)

As far as placement of new simple objects such as cubes and spheres and such...
the paradime that XSI works off of is that you need to orient all that stuff with a center in the world center... that just makes good since to me ... If I had to draw it as in Max or Wave... I find I spend as much time doing that as I do draging the new object from World Center anyway....

So I'm still missing your point on the modeling end of it....

perhaps if you spent a bit more time maybe with some of the modeling tutorials for XSI and get to know the flow of it more.... then.... see if your modeling evaluation is the same as before...

[thiago]

I think that table isn't informative enough because it's not based on benchmarks or real arguments. It doesn't say what you can and what you cannot do in a software, or what is a software design flaw or something more deep.
For me all that just sounds like a review based on personal preferences and that's not fair for any software.

Example: 3dsmax has no construction history like XSI and Maya have. 3dsmax can't hold any operation like extrudes/bevels/etc in a construction stack... it can just do it as a modifier but it can't at polygon core level. Even worst 3dsmax has no separation for animation/modeling/blendshapes operations... Secondary Shape at scene graph level? no way... The software was not designed like this.
Still... Comprehensive non linear animation that works across everything in the package? Generalized attribute transfer? Object Oriented SDK? Gigapolygon core? Shared architecture with Mentalray?
Those things in the XSI architecture are just beyond the scope of 3dsmax... and you don't say any of that when comparing these softwares?

yet you say development in XSI is "good" and Lighwtave "Very Good"??? Based on what?
XSI has object oriented API that work as the same on all languages, it's made on top of dotNet technology and it ship with C#, Jscript, VBscript, Python and you can still trow Pearl on it.
Then you call LScript in LW a very good thing?
I don't get it.

So I think it's not a case of "review" your table, it's more about what are you based on to give those notes.

I would rather see a performance comparison, subs polycount, render speed, etc... than something that just confuses new users giving that weird notes.

Despite all that, XSI has maintenance contract and the table say that it doesn't. :P

[bsm3d]

But that's not a 'modeling' issue correct?

+1 : you are right , that's rendering issue... :-) in my mind it's also modeling one as at the final rendering I see a model...

[bsm3d]

Hello Thiago,

Thanks for your feedback.

I agree many peoples asked for benchmarks, polygons ,...but at the start this table is not to compare who is the best of all. this table was just done to see in few mouse scroll, what's major today features 3D softwares have or not...

If you read all my text i don't say that's there is a better one then others...

Maybe the way of my article was writed look like a benchmarks table ?

About Dev. I'm based on many 3D users and dev feedback and myself, but as I'm not an expert in SDK for all softwares (and I hope never be :-) ) I collect a lot's of users informations and datas.

Many peoples helped me into writing this table, and you probably smiles if you know that's each softwares company give me a feedback and mistakes to updates...

I was in contact with dev and Tech support of : NewTek, Softimage, Autodesk (Canadian Maya division), Luxology, Blender Expert. I don't was in contact with Autodesk about 3dsmax, it's myself 10 years experience on.

About Cinema4D, I don't get à lots of informations, just few from Belgian reseller (thanks to!)

For Tech.Support, I get contat with each support company to see how is fast, reactive, reply was usefull,...

For the rest and test, I was in contact with more than 20 cg pro working each with one or two 3D softwares...

And for 12 months I do somes test, benchmarks etc myselfs and re do in each 3D pplications listed, after 12 months and all peoples who helped me I collected all this datas and write this table.

A long and painfull work, but I'm happy with my results...

As I read all reply in this topic, (don't be offensed) I see many compare my article to a 3dsmax Vs XSI...A bit of LW.

Cheers,

[norvman]

+1 : you are right , that's rendering issue... :-) in my mind it's also modeling one as at the final rendering I see a model...well that would make since if you didn't have a separate rendering catagory in your review statements....

Stability when modeling and manipulating (vertex, polygons, edges,...) high polygons datas (Maximum in this test was 2 millions polygons scenes)then as a separate issue you state...

Rendering quality using default rendertwo different catagories so one should separate these ideas out for consistancy and clairity of your audience....
When doing a review one is communicating to others...
so what is still stuck in your mind really isn't going to help much...
put it down so we can see it....
and understand it...

I mean you've done a good job over all... I believe... (that is I agree with about 85% of what you have said)...

Anyway ....
your probably not the first to not pay much attention to audience...
So I wouldn't worry to much about it...

I learned along time ago that putting too much faith in reviews is loosing strategy....
I think most people think the same...