is XSI scaring you? [Archive]

thiago

03-10-2008, 09:45 PM

I'm quite used to XSI, I love it interface and workflow... love the general concepts and ideas. It's so straightforward that it made me work way faster then I was used in maya or 3dsmax. I love that I don't need to go back and forth on steps that was usually necessary in other softwares.

But... Is the world ready for that? lol

I'm asking this because I had seen interns/starters running out through the door because they said XSI looks too complex to use...

Giving the fact that our interface has basically no icons (the ones on the main shelf are pretty ugly and incomplete), all features operations exposed in the top-level, the explorer showing you everything about everything... Also our workflow strongly based on shortcuts/sticky keys/combinations keys... and everything is... hmmm gray.

That said, could XSI be a bit more "cool" in terms of first impression?
Could a welcome screen like the one on Modtool help? A more customizable interface with some icon based layouts? some colors maybe?

I'm asking that not because of myself, to be honest I don't care... I'm so used to XSI that even if something change I would probably stick to the current Layout.
But I heard (not one time but a few times), that XSI was too "hard core" to learn, and I don't think it's true since I completely migrate to XSI in 2 weeks. But it would help everybody if all these people that are afraid of XSI could at least, try it out.

I'm 100% sure that after learn the interface, these people would fall in love with Softimage workflow... :)

What do you guys think? How do you feel looking to more "cute" interfaces like:

http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/~chultqui/houdini/images/subdivision_bumpy_surface_interface.png (http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/%7Echultqui/houdini/images/subdivision_bumpy_surface_interface.png)

http://www.maxon.net/pages/images/products/cinema4d/highlights/usability/usability_e.jpg

http://images.gamedev.net/features/reviews/modo202/1-modo-interface.jpg

Just to make this thread clear... I'm not talking about the workflow or how XSI tools work. I'm asking what people think about XSI in terms of UI design and functionality.

jgoldfin

03-10-2008, 09:59 PM

We are working on getting a module of our Education Training Content up on the community site that goes over the interface and UI.. that might help to alleviate some of the "fears" out there and get artists used to a deifferent package more at ease with XSI.

Once it's live, please let us know your feedback, and if it helps.

jen

Zac-Donald

03-10-2008, 10:07 PM

At first glance i was like... okay... its dark and NOT sleek, clean but... somethings look blah and too much words, but actually I love it now,

no rolling over and waiting till the tool describes its self when learning a new software, no extras or distracting bits, but in my opinion I'm not a fan of the excessive rounded-ness of the design, could be sleeker, and i'd like it that way IF, you did take up anymore space than you do now.

thiago

03-10-2008, 10:11 PM

Thanks Jennifer, sure I will :)

I forgot to show how my XSI looks...
this is an XSI session open during a normal workday... http://www.thiagocosta.net/temp/override.jpg

But I will try to put a screencap of XSI under a very busy workday... ;)

i3D_Jack

03-11-2008, 12:18 AM

I don't think XSI has a difficult interface myself. I remember when I first got into 3dsMax, now that was a difficult to use interface. I still think so to this day; not difficult, just very clunky and impractical. Maya was easier and the interface made more sense to me when I learned it. When I made the jump to XSI, it made complete sense. The interface, although not fancy looking (come back to that in a moment), was very straight forward. The best way I describe the interface is; it was made with common sense in mind. No arbitrary icons that only the author knows what it means. Instead everything is straight forward; you want to render, find the render button. Want to modify polygons? Go to the modify polygons menu, very hard to miss even on your first time in XSI. Learning the interface in 3dsMax took me about a couple of months, same with Maya. XSI only took me a couple of weeks. Personally, I don't think that was a coincidence in my case. I have taught Maya artists how to use XSI, and all of them have made the transition very quickly and easily after putting some time into it. Back to the interface "look", honestly, you can give a talented 3d artists the ugliest or prettiest interface ever designed, and they will still produce great results. The only thing I'm concerned about when it comes to an interface, is 1)access speed to functions, 2)accessibility, 3)logical organization. Other than that, it makes no difference to me if the interface has spinners, neon lights, or little elves that point to the tool you need next. Though that would be weird, and probably very disturbing, so it might make a little difference after all. That's just my two cents on the topic, flame on :surrender:

Leo

03-11-2008, 12:23 AM

Hey Thiago,

I kind of like XSI's dry look. The only other App which actually got me curious about its UI is Modo. The catch though is that, IMHO, there's no way to radically change the interface without changing the workflow, so I guess SI would have a huge challenge in their hands if/when they decide to tackle this.

Just my 0.02 :)

Leo.

yayas

03-11-2008, 04:34 AM

When I opened XSI for the first time years ago, it was not scary, instead, it was a bit too modern to me. I came from Softimage|3D which was much, much more scary than XSI.
It was so old fashioned UNIX-look..

But I like it so much. The funny thing is, many Soft3D users didn't like the modern look of XSI at that time. Actually, it wasn't XSI that first showed up, it was Softimage|Twister which slighty looked like XSI that I believe it's based on Softimage|DS interface.

After a few month used the app, I think I started to love XSI interface and never look back since then. Having an experience with Soft|3D, I don't mind this text-based interface at all, and wouldn't swap with the likes of Max or C4D, for example. I know nothing about other interface, e.g. Maya or Lightwave.

Adrian Lazar

03-11-2008, 04:39 AM

i really like xsi complexity, if anything i would like to be more complex/exposed like houdini is but keeping the great workflow that xsi has (and that has been the main reason that i switch to xsi from 3dsmax)
Oh, i remember one little thing that scared me/annoyed me and still does is how hard it is to work with the very basic deform tool bend, taper, noise etc... in both 3dsmax and houdini this tools are better and easier to understand and even if i don't use bend (for example) a lot when i do it's driving me crazy.
About the interface, i like it but a little redesign wouldn't hurt (I was scared about hudini older interface, i love what they did with the new one)

Paul Wood

03-11-2008, 04:47 AM

Coming from Lightwave which has an even dryer look i think XSI has a perfect UI. It already achieves the perfect look by adding the curves and roundness to the menu items and buttons. Adding cute icons and over doing the interface just takes up precious space and i think makes it even more confusing trying to guess what icon does what.

franky

03-11-2008, 06:14 AM

i figure much of that ANGST first time users might have comes from the fact that they likely worked with max or Maya before.
so they are not used to the idea to have everything at their fingertips and might get overwhelmed with the options and possibilities. i was a max user myself and when first time i saw SI3D i was just repelled. so much buttons left and right... that was too much for the little brain
:)

thats no reason whatsoever to change it imho. its the best interface i ever used and its one reason for my studios switch. some training like jen is preparing should be sufficient to make the switch easier. any serious artist should have that much curiosity inside to get over the first "shock" and dig a bit further.

giant551

03-11-2008, 06:54 AM

To be honest with you it never scared me but with all complex software programs it just takes a little while to get used to. I am probably one of the few users here who has never used or learned any of the other packages. I came from a CAD background using Inventor and Rhino so not only did i have to learn the interface i had no idea what a polygon was either!!

The leaning curve wasn't bad and once you get used to the interface it just all makes sense and it feels natural. Combine that with knowing your hotkeys and wow! Its like finding there's more than 2 gears in a Ferrari.

I would like to see the ability to change the UI colours nothing fancy just a light and a black scheme a bit like Max just so if the lighting is variable in my workspace i can make it a bit more easy on the eyes. Other than that i'm happy:biggrin:

Lepo

03-11-2008, 06:54 AM

I personally think that Xsi has the best UI out there. It`s clean and logic and more than everything I hate icon based interfaces :)

IslandDreamer

03-11-2008, 07:14 AM

I wouldn't mind if Softimage allowed users to change the UI's fonts and button sizes.

I think the Modo interface looks great (although I don't like the workplane idea in the perspective view).

Silo's users have also developed many beautiful interfaces over the years, but all those customized interfaces make following video tutorials difficult as each instructor has a different looking desktop!

I like how the Mod Tool allows users to switch between icons and text, although all of the icons in the Mod Tool seem too big to me.

At the end of the day, I'll keep XSI just the way it is! :-)

patrick.n

03-11-2008, 07:14 AM

What Lepo said.

Coming from soft|3D/irix, it did feel fancy and overly rounded, but I'm over that now, and it's certainly way better than icon-based layouts.
If I recall correctly the Sumatra design was a fair bit squashier. This is just right.

Patrick

Helli

03-12-2008, 06:25 AM

Actually I started with Cinema, after half a year I switched to XSI. 3 years ago I had to learn Max and now since I am AnimationMentor Student I am learning maya.

What I can say about the different interfaces XSI has the most intuitive and logic one from all those Packages. Cinemas Interface is good too, It's really easy to learn.

Maya actually is a big pain for me. I know all those packages, and I am I would say an Expert in XSI and average in Max, but still its soooo damn hard to get over the Maya Interface. You can't even guess where you might find a function, for me it's just a pain....

So, yea I definitly think the XSI Layout is perfect as it is now (maybe with minor changes, there is allways something wich could be better).

burg

03-12-2008, 07:21 AM

I moved from SI|3D to XSI. For me it was like a breathe of fresh air. At the same point as I was learning XSi I was also learning MAX too. As I progressed through both I just found how MAX was a nightmare, soooo clunky and counter-intuitive. For me trying to understand an icon and what it is telling me this button is doing, is far less efficient than hitting the "Render" button. The XSI UI is fantastic, along with the Supra keys and shortcuts, I just find myself whizzing along! Please don't change too much! I think I would only perhaps add the option to change colours (as mentioned before). Looking at the screenies above i'd have to say that Houdini looks like a nightmare! So busy, GBH for the eyes, but the Modo one looks pretty good stuff.

Strange Sharp

03-12-2008, 08:49 AM

Well, "scary" is too strong a word I think :) My first impression was closer to "rather unimpressive."

I'm completely new to 3d, and still don't have a spline to my name in XSI, and although I found the UI unimpressive, I bought Foundation four days ago and looking forward to hours of frustrating, mind-twisting fun.

But before that I tried all the major 3d applications. XSI's UI felt rather shy and washed out. Not dark enough or bright enough, and while I generally liked the text-heavy interface, I still don't understand why I have to press "Get" to create something. Sort of like Windows XP where you have to open the Start menu to shut the computer down.

So I moved on to Maya PLE next. And that was scary, and not the classic kind of scary like in those good ol' 80's (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087800/) horror (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093177/) flicks. It just felt like they implemented the functionality at their leisure and then hacked the interface together using stock icons six hours before going gold.

Then I tried Lightwave. The UI there felt like XSI's uglier, genetically-deformed, radiation-exposed twice-removed cousin. Having it split into two separate programs didn't help at all.

Then I tried modo, loved it, and went ahead and bought a license.

After a few weeks of frolicking with it, I thought I should get another 3d package that did more than modeling, just in case I wanted to (God forbid) try my hand at rigging or animation.

So I went through the motions once again, skipping Lightwave this time around.

I started with Maya PLE, and it was far worse after working with modo. First time it was horrifying, but now it was disgusting. And I mean utterly disgusting. As in too-sick-even-for-Internet-pr0n kind of disgusting.

I uninstalled Maya, re-installed XSI's trial, and bought a set of introductory video (http://www.digitaltutors.com/store/product.php?productid=2496&cat=54&page=1) tutorials from Digital Tutors. I watched the videos and followed along, and it made a lot more sense, and I felt quite at home. So I went ahead and bought Foundation, and I hope to be using it a lot more in coming few days and weeks.

I think modo proved that well-designed icons can make a lot of sense and improve productivity, and I hope XSI would adopt something similar soon. And it was a subject of many a flame war on Luxology's forums, but I think that the way they force you to pay US$25 for training videos to download modo's trial also makes a lot of sense. I think that bundling a set of high quality, short training videos wiht XSI's trial is something that is worth considering.

So to summarize this unforgivably long post (brought to you courtesy of a cancelled meeting on a very slow day at work), it is the opinion of this n00b that XSI could use a bolder color scheme, some icons to aid but not replace the textual interface, and a clear, n00b-friendly introduction to the package bundled with both the trial and the licensed products.

P.S. Sorry if I offended anyone by being harsh with my opinion about other 3d packages. But it's just my opinion, and as total rookie it doesn't carry a lot of weight really. Apologies in advance just in case.

IslandDreamer

03-12-2008, 09:09 AM

Great post, for a newb! I couldn't agree more about your impressions of the Maya interface. Redundancy is generally a good thing and XSI has plenty of it, but every command in Maya is available in at least four places all at the same time and they are usually located in the least likely menu!

Ooops

03-12-2008, 11:17 AM

To me, XSI UI is definately the best I've tried. Please dont add "too many" icons. keep the text based interface.
Thats why it was so fast to learn XSI.

I agree that being able to change the colors would be great, like a darker one in low light conditions, etc.

cheers

nemac4

03-12-2008, 11:44 AM

I'm a Lightwave user learning XSI. I remember when I first opened XSI, I was happy to see text rather than cryptic icons. That alone has made the interface less scary to me.

Helli

03-12-2008, 01:32 PM

I agree that being able to change the colors would be great, like a darker one in low light conditions, etc.

I definitly don't know it, but I can imagine that there is some sort of XML File somewhere where you can change the colourstyle of the Layout. Maybe someone from SI kann tell us more about that.

thiago

03-12-2008, 02:11 PM

I definitly don't know it, but I can imagine that there is some sort of XML File somewhere where you can change the colourstyle of the Layout. Maybe someone from SI kann tell us more about that.

You can't really, the gray interface is locked... what you can is change the viewport, components and default object colors...

Helli

03-12-2008, 02:38 PM

You can't really, the gray interface is locked... what you can is change the viewport, components and default object colors...

Sad to hear, but to be honest, I don't need it anyways ;)

yayas

03-12-2008, 10:58 PM

XSI UI, IMO, is actually a much richer and fancier version of Softimage|3D which has been defined 20+ years ago. The people behind Soft|3D deserve utmost respect for this.

I read somewhere, that Daniel Langlois (the Softimage founder) himself had a share in designing XSI interface. Can someone from Softimage confirm this?

If you're interested, you can read this:
http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/86

And Luc-Eric shares an interesting early screenshot of XSI-UI here:
http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/175

cheers

scaron

03-12-2008, 11:35 PM

...And Luc-Eric shares an interesting early screenshot of XSI-UI here:
http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/175... (http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/175)

now that is scarey

CiaranM

03-13-2008, 12:51 AM

I like it. Very clean. Could be a little more minimal even and efficient in use of space (smaller buttons, better arrangements etc.), but is definitely the most coherent and logical of those that I've used (Maya, LW, Max).
I like use of text over icons. I don't want to waste time memorizing the meaning of a pretty little icon: I already know the meaning of the word.
The layout editor could do with some work. It should be more flexible and user friendly. It does offer a lot of room for customization, but there are a lot of hardwired limitations (why only one view manager? etc.).
Lots of nice little touches - how many apps have an SDK explorer built into the UI? But, sometimes the number of different views can be overwhelming. Whatever happened to the Relational Views from version 4?
The Schematic is looking a bit long in the tooth. I wish it were a bit more malleable - I want to interact with the nodes, not just view their hierarchies.
Goodness! Why does my rendertree keep disappearing!!! And why can't I share nodes between trees?
I feel that there is a very strong relationship between the actual UI and the workflow in XSI, which is a sign of a strong design philosophy - something that is more often than not lacking when dealing with computers in general. Iron out the kinks and our workflows will prosper.

Here's my typical layout, if anyone cares: http://homepages.nyu.edu/~crm300/Images/XSI_Layout.jpg

scaron

03-13-2008, 12:53 AM

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~crm300/Images/XSI_Layout.jpg (http://homepages.nyu.edu/%7Ecrm300/Images/XSI_Layout.jpg)

l-systems... i like!

s

CiaranM

03-13-2008, 01:21 AM

l-systems... i like!

s

Someday, L-systems will be for everyone...:whistling:

thiago

03-13-2008, 01:47 AM

StrangeSharp, your post says a lot, thanks.
XSI interface is not impressive at all... gray everywhere, with black text and thats it.
But it's logical. Makes sense, it is clean and efficient.
Now something I see a lot of people saying: "...after get used to the interface, it's awesome, the best I've ever seen...".

The point is: if you get a person that's new to 3d and show him XSI, it will appear to be less "friendly" than other softwares. This is a fact. I had a hard time to convince people that a text is more logic than an icon.

Just look yourself, click on XSI create "curve" menu.
Now look to the one in c4d: http://www.loscavio.com/downloads/blog/images/SweepNurbs_Cinema4D_01.jpg

For a beginner, the C4d icon+text will be a lot simpler than a "Draw Cubic by Bezier-Knot Points" command, even if that does the same thing!

This "first shock" is something that can be avoided with an welcome screen, some startup tutorials and (why not?) a bit more friendly interface. Modtool already went that way (with ugly icons :P).
I'm really happy that they are working to port educational content and Softimage|NET to XSI interface, it will help a lot to put people on front of XSI and let them play.
But I'm afraid that wouldn't be enough.

- One thing is teach Maya people, they already know all the fundamentals of 3d and it's a waste of time if you take this person and make he/she learn what an icon is doing. This person wants to know where the extrude is, period. They don't have a reason to go learn icons anymore. And XSI will be the best thing ever for them.

- Another user is an intern/18ystudent/totally beginner trying to learn a 100 technical 3d terms just to be able to do his first 3d model. This would surely thinks that the "draw cubic curve by know points" is less obvious than a curvy shiny icon :)
So this person (that just wanna do something cool in 3d), will easily become frustrated.

I'm sorry for the text lovers... but when I try to remember a popular application that holds a text based interface, nothing comes to my mind. :|

About Houdini again... look to their old interface: http://www.chinadv.com/i/tutor/2006/12/27/223135214.jpg
Just to remember... the new one (http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/%7Echultqui/houdini/images/subdivision_bumpy_surface_interface.png)
Now tell me that this redesign has nothing to do with their product is getting more popular every day.

the current XSI design has a lot of potential, it doesn't need to change a thing in workflow/functionality... it's just make it look better, less rounded here and there, let users set some colors, make a dark theme, some (cough) decent icons on shelves... There's so much that could be done to improve this design, it's not that hard.

CiaranM

03-13-2008, 01:59 AM

About Houdini again... look to their old interface: http://www.chinadv.com/i/tutor/2006/12/27/223135214.jpg
Just to remember... the new one (http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/%7Echultqui/houdini/images/subdivision_bumpy_surface_interface.png)
Now tell me that this redesign has nothing to do with their product is getting more popular every day.

Sure, it's an improvement (not necessarily to my taste), but look how much screen space is lost because of those huge, cute icons on the top toolbar and elsewhere.
It's so noisy to the eye. If I look at that interface, then my eye keeps dancing around the screen because there are so many different, brightly colored things that are drawing my attention. I think I might have trouble focusing in such a UI...so much clutter.

thiago

03-13-2008, 02:40 AM

Sure, it's an improvement (not necessarily to my taste), but look how much screen space is lost because of those huge, cute icons on the top toolbar and elsewhere.
It's so noisy to the eye. If I look at that interface, then my eye keeps dancing around the screen because there are so many different, brightly colored things that are drawing my attention. I think I might have trouble focusing in such a UI...so much clutter.

In terms of design, I don't want XSI to go that way either.
It's was just to show that Houdini as an extremely technical software (believe me I'm learning it!), can try to be more "friendly" even when it isn't.

XSI on the other side, is way more advanced in terms of usability and workflow, it wouldn't be difficult to make it a little pretty and less rounded gray.

It can still be clear, with some icons indicating top level functionality plus:
- custom colors, a darker theme would be more than welcome.
- Take the excess of bevel, flat it all! Why every single button has to have that beveled border?
- Rounded text inputs aren't a problem. All buttons being rounded is exaggerated.
- Views like the Transform or Select Panel are all compiled, but I would love if I could have access to buttons with circular shapes and etc to put on shelves, PPGs, custom layouts...
- Widgets. Some additions are already expected but would be interesting to have access to all types of widgets that are already in XSI... Tear of menus, collapse panels, square text input fields with fold able menus (popup anim params tree), icons that pop menus (snaps), toggle buttons... etc.

This discussion is going the same way as the "Alt" key. I love use the "S" as a navigation and I wouldn't never set it to "Alt" in XSI.
But the entire industry uses Alt, so it's just stupid if XSI didn't support this. You just loose users because they get frustrated with this kind of "barrier".

Adrian Lazar

03-13-2008, 04:09 AM

It's true that the new houdini interface takes more space but it extremely customizable, you can collapse almost every panel, undock the panel, close it, whatever... besides, today working with 2 displays is very common so you have more space for the viewport. Anyway, houdini has a quite different workflow than softimage, the network view is many times more important than the viewport so it's quite logical that they sacrifice the viewport space for the network view. This doesn't apply to softimage as is not as technical as houdini, though i would love to be.
All say it again, they did a smart move with the new interface, i'm learning houdini and the new interface helps me a lot.

AceMastermind

03-13-2008, 04:20 AM

XSI Mod Tool 4.2 was the first 3d app that I ever used, and I have to admit that I was a little intimidated by all of the buttons on the left, right, top and bottom of the interface.
I had zero knowledge of what any 3d terms were when it came to modeling, animating, and rigging but I could easily look up what tool does what in the manual which got me on my way.

I started using XSI because of a game that I mod called "Star Wars Battlefront 2", the game creators(Pandemic) made all of this game's content and exported it from XSI as msh with an xsiaddon they created.
I am currently using XSI Foundation 5.11 because it is the last version of XSI that works with Pandemic's "msh exporter" which is crucial to get new content into the game.
(if someone would like to fix the addon to make it work with newer versions of XSI I would be grateful, then I could finally upgrade:wink:)

I've been using XSI Foundation for almost a year and a half now and I absolutely love it, I wouldn't change a thing as far as the interface because I think it is straight forward and to the point and it looks very professional in my opinion.
I give praise to the people working at Softimage, you're all doing a great job!:clap:

kim aldis

03-13-2008, 06:49 AM

I'm asking this because I had seen interns/starters running out through the door because they said XSI looks too complex to use...

3d animation is complex and scary, there's no getting around that and I think it's a mistake to give the impression that high end 3D software is necessarily right for people who won't or can't take the time to learn how to use it properly. Scan through the forums and despair at the number of posts from people you just know should be looking at easier careers.

I'm not maybe not the best person to talk about easy interfaces, my first experience with 3D animation was so long ago that there were no off the shelf tools, let alone graphical interfaces, and I was working with whatever I wrote myself. That said, my first step into XSI - version 1.0, alpha - was an easy experience, everything seemed to be in the right place and made sense. Which was also my experience with Houdini but definitely not with Maya which has always made little sense to me.

Helli

03-13-2008, 07:00 AM

but definitely not with Maya which has always made little sense to me.

Good, I thougt it's just me...

andystopps

03-13-2008, 10:14 AM

Good, I thougt it's just me...

No,it certainly isn't...

Coming to XSI after Max (mostly OK UI) and Maya (dreadful), my immediate impression was how much easier it was to get stuck straight into making it actually do something, rather than having to search through the manual just to get started; text labels on buttons, rather than stupid little icons - so much quicker (I suppose if you don't speak the language used for the UI then it's a bit more difficult, but at least you get a language lesson out of the experience; btw does anyone know how many languages are supported ? I presume French, and on the bonus stuff on the Howl's Moving Castle DVD you can see a Japanese version - which puts me in mind of the icons on the Maya interface, come to think of it).

Two areas where there is room for improvement with the XSI interface come to mind - the schematic, as already mentioned (so annoying when it forgets the layout you've made in a previous session, and it's tiresome that the select and move tools are seperate), and the Texture editor, due to it's nasty attack of iconitis...

Ooops

03-13-2008, 11:10 AM

The first time I tried XSI (must have been version 3.0 trial) I hated it. Not because of the UI (which is great), but the way the navigation and shortcuts worked. I was coming from Maya (at work). I was conditionned to the Alt navigation and qwerty keys.

Having the S key as navigation made no sense to me.

But when I came back to XSI at version 5.0, when they implemented the "Maya Layout and shortcuts". Everything fell into place. I use XSI at home but with the Maya alt-qwerty setup, and its perfect for me. I love it.

You shouldnt have to adapt to the software, the software should allow you to tweak it so it adapts to you. Its like asking a right handed painter to hold his brush in his left hand. Best thing Softimage did, in my opinion, was to implement these different Maya-Max layouts. Cheers ;)

A lot of people use other softwares at work, just because they have to...so to go home and switch to different keys is just asking for trouble (and brain damage).

This is all, of course my personal opinion.

Strange Sharp

03-13-2008, 12:42 PM

3d animation is complex and scary, there's no getting around that and I think it's a mistake to give the impression that high end 3D software is necessarily right for people who won't or can't take the time to learn how to use it properly.
I fully agree. It took me a while to come to terms with the fact that 3d is not easy and that there is a hefty learning curve involved regardless of software used.

That said, I think that some software greatly add to the learning curve, and others give users a slight helping hand. Maya has a knack for complicating things in my inexperienced opinion, while modo (for example) tries to be more welcoming with a charming user interface, good intruductory content built into the program, and some mandatory training videos.

I think XSI's UI states that message clearly. Perhaps far too clearly for its own good when it comes to users new to 3d. The UI screams "this is not going to be trivial." But it should also whisper assuringly "but you can do it, and we'll help you along."

3dtutorial

03-13-2008, 12:57 PM

It never ceases to amaze me just how easy working with XSI (or most any other software for that matter) is when one takes the time to do one simple thing...

Read the manual!

It's funny how few people do this however.

Honestly, nearly everything you would want or need to know is inside.

People are bone lazy these days ;-)

J

kim aldis

03-13-2008, 01:14 PM

I firmly believe it's mostly because they can just ask on a forum and a dozen people will chip in with an answer. And I think it's shortsighted, you don't get the firm understanding of the software that you get reading the documentation and while it may seem quicker to ask in the long term knowing the software and knowing how to use the manual efficiently is way quicker than sitting around waiting for an answer.

What really annoys me, though, is when someone jumps down your throat for even suggesting it.

Firebird

03-13-2008, 01:16 PM

I just can say i love the interface
plz dont but any ugly big icon buttons in it.
And for me XSI was much easier to understand then Max and Maya I worked mith Max befor and learned XSI and Maya at shool and stuck with that 1 that feels right for me and it was XSI

after 3 years max it took me 2 weeks to switch to XSi and i was just a hobby user those days(i dindt had much knowlegde about 3d) so the main reason was the interface (workflow) and to be much much faster with my simple projekts then in the other appz.

I liked the interface from the first look and i dont need any fancy icons.

If it would help to get new users with an alternetiv Icon interface then yeah why not as long as u can switch to the old 1.

sry for the English
greets

luceric

03-13-2008, 08:29 PM

Yes, the XSI User Interface scares me :sweatdrop:

:)

Seriously, the look of XSI has changed quite a bit through the years. The visual noise and the extra bumps have been largely removed. I believe XSI is easier than the other products because all the commands of the products are right there instead of being tucked away in multiple dynamic panes like Max. Now that said, there are a lot more menus on screen at startup than other products. We're trimming down a bit on these in every release. For example, the Animation Editor is much more trimmed in XSI 6.0, and some menu duplicates have been eliminated.

scaron

03-13-2008, 08:46 PM

@luceric
i would like to see more of the interface moving towards the way the newer "Animation" button in the Animation Panel looks like, also the MCP, KP/L, MAT tab buttons. if you look at the left main toolbar right now, the section titles are nice, then the buttons below them are bubbly and embossed.

tighter corner smoothing in general would make the inteface much nicer i think

Daniel Brassard

03-13-2008, 09:41 PM

If it would help to get new users with an alternetiv Icon interface then yeah why not as long as u can switch to the old 1.

For those who have XSI 5.X and above:

View > Option Panels > Main Shelf

A bunch of tabs and Icons will appears at the top of the Viewports.

For those who would like to experiments with the layout, check this tutorial:

http://www.rowu-media.nl/content/web/tutorials/misc/EditingLayout.html

Cheers!

thiago

03-14-2008, 07:23 AM

Yes, the XSI User Interface scares me :sweatdrop:

I bet!!!
You have been doing a quite nice job Luc Eric... :)

XSI UI is really stable and fast compared to other packages. Sometimes I get myself working with 15 views at the same time + lots of PPGs hanging around, object views, material manager, render manager and a couple of rendertrees... And it's all integrated, predictable and fast. Later I'll post a screenshot of a busy day at work. :)

And this is something I definitely don't remember as a former 3dsmax user. Every single view had a different approach in 3dsmax... now that was scary!
Maya was really bad too... things are always in weird obscure places, with bad unpredictable functionality... those icons are freaking ugly and they put icons for everything. In my opinions icons should be used for generic functions, and to call submenus.

Now I think XSI UI design as a whole can move forward... I think as Steven said everything could get a bit flat like the Animation button, and you can have variations of what is "flat", because right now almost everything is beveled and would be nice to expose all this types of buttons :P

there are a lot more menus on screen at startup than other products.

I think this is a good move but I don't think the advanced XSI user really cares with how much information is being displayed right now. I think it would be really hard to manage on take something from the top of the interface, it would hurt some feelings :P
Maybe ship XSI with an extra friendly/simplified skin would be cool for new users (like modtool has, but a pretty one for XSI then :P).

IslandDreamer

03-14-2008, 07:53 AM

luceric

03-18-2008, 12:08 AM

Besides removing the rounded, beveled buttons, I would like to see a cleaner, more modern font. The XSI font reminds me of the Amiga's (in)famous Topaz, which even looked bad back in 1985!

http://www.amiga.org/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=2712&cid=1
XSI is mainly using the font Tahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahoma_%28typeface%29) for its using user interface. Try to turning on ClearType if you are using an LCD panel in Windows if it looks harsh and not anti-aliased.

IslandDreamer

03-18-2008, 12:49 AM

I've got Cleartype on and it still looks pretty jagged to me.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2255/2341721965_f7e644cb09_o.jpg

Ooops

03-18-2008, 05:33 AM

XSI is mainly using the font Tahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahoma_%28typeface%29) for its using user interface. Try to turning on ClearType if you are using an LCD panel in Windows if it looks harsh and not anti-aliased.

Sorry for this stupid question, but how do you change the font to a different one?

Cheers.

bsm3d

03-19-2008, 08:36 AM

I agree XSI interface can be ugly in a colorfull world and where CG softwares have a lot and a lots of new icons, colored, etc...

So I know PRO users prefer XSI texts interface, reading directly what's they need and not to learn each new kind of icons...

Icons is beautyfull but not standard and quick to learn as textes (3dsmax, xsi, lw, maya is texts interface)

Configurating interface is great but not the best to do, it's better to use original interface and shortcuts...

my 2 cents

Gene

03-28-2008, 12:50 PM

@ Luc-Eric: You do a great job, congratulations!

I'm using max since 1.0, and meanwhile I can say I know a bit of it's strenghts and weaknesses. The UI is not as unfriendly as Maya's, but there are plenty of inconsistencies and question marks. Frustratingly, Autodesk seems not to give much priority to UI improvements and cleanup. I think some flaws will never get fixed, supposedly because they risk to create cascading errors by digging too deep in old code. I don't expect much change here, sad but true.

Therefore I was quite enthusiastic when XSI came out. Shiny, clean, reasonable!
The early versions looked promising, but I did not find it feature complete enough to transition. I check out every version, and now in 6.5 the UI is almost what I expect it to be, already did some work with it, yet there are a few little things that I still miss badly:

- Configurable RMB context menus! Preferrably in combination with ctrl, alt, shift.
max introduced quad-menus a few versions ago, and it was one of their best ideas for the UI. Get used to those and there's no turning back.
It's unnecessary mouse travel to go to the popup menus to the left, at least for the tools you use all the time.
Also, the ALT menu is much too long to come in really handy, it should be split up.
It does not have to be as complicated as Maya's hotbox. 4 parts are perfect. There's this XPop addon, but it should be there by default.

- Mouse wheel viewport zoom!

I think these are just a little effort, but users would profit a lot.

On the feature side I'm almost happy, only the weak curve editing toolset hurts. Max is quite powerful in that regard.

The day XSI comes with these features, I'll get down on my knees, thank heavens, ditch max and do my switch! ;)

Long live XSI!
Best regards,
Gene

GeneCrucean

03-28-2008, 05:53 PM

This discussion is going the same way as the "Alt" key. I love use the "S" as a navigation and I wouldn't never set it to "Alt" in XSI.
But the entire industry uses Alt, so it's just stupid if XSI didn't support this. You just loose users because they get frustrated with this kind of "barrier".

Who just poked me with a stick? I was happily sleeping over here :)

scaron

03-28-2008, 06:00 PM

alt key is a modifier.... runaway, runaway!

thiago

03-28-2008, 06:01 PM

hey this was me Gene :P

but I think this is like I said... Icon based interfaces are just standard in all applications today. And they all succeed.
Even a very technical tool like Houdini after the "icon festival" became more popular. How XSI going to the other direction would help to grow the userbase?

thiago

03-28-2008, 06:02 PM

alt key is a modifier.... runaway, runaway!

I'm with you but who cares? :P

scaron

03-28-2008, 06:23 PM

...How XSI going to the other direction would help to grow the userbase?

by knowing when to use icons and when not too...

animation layer manager for instance... you use icons when you have little to no space and are limited amount of buttons

GeneCrucean

03-28-2008, 06:28 PM

Couple of wussies! ;)

Btw, I'm with you Thiago. The image you posted of C4D's curve tools is a good example. Draw cubic by bezier-what goes in the where? That's got to be throwing off noobs. I never really thought about it until reading this thread because I come from Max and by the time I started using XSI (1.5), I had a solid understanding of general terminology. It might be cool to have an option that lets menu's display an icon next to text like that C4D image. That way the more advanced users can just toggle it off and save screen space.

The one thing I personally would love to have, is have a DARKER interface.

nemac4

03-28-2008, 09:36 PM

I'd like to see view lock/pan/zoom/rotate icons like c4d, lightwave and modo have in the viewport corners. It would be nice to not have to use the keyboard for every rotation and pan and zoom. The focus lock, like lightwave, would save time with panning as well.

scaron

03-28-2008, 09:52 PM

...It would be nice to not have to use the keyboard for every rotation and pan and zoom. The focus lock, like lightwave, would save time with panning as well.

just hit 's' on the keyboard... then your left hand (or right) is free while your right (or left) hand is navigating with the mouse

its called sticky keys.. read about it... it will open up your world

s

3dtutorial

03-28-2008, 10:19 PM

GeneCrucean

03-28-2008, 11:11 PM

just hit 's' on the keyboard... then your left hand (or right) is free while your right (or left) hand is navigating with the mouse

its called sticky keys.. read about it... it will open up your world

s

Technically, holding down s would be sticky keys. Because if you just tapped it, it would switch to that tool and that would be like every other app. Or am I thinking backwards here :)

Either way, my post is OT and I apologize.

scaron

03-28-2008, 11:16 PM

well just looking up 'sticky keys' will get him to the place to learn about them, regardless of the example he gave.

back OT (on topic?)

luceric

03-28-2008, 11:40 PM

Technically, holding down s would be sticky keys. Because if you just tapped it, it would switch to that tool and that would be like every other app. Or am I thinking backwards here :)

Yep.. that's backward.. the sticky key is the way other apps work. Holding down key to temporarily go in a tool is called "supra key"

it's funny because Silo 2.0 implemented a feature called "Sticky Keys", which is a copy of our "supra key" feature in XSI. So you're not alone to be confused. A few people internally get those mixed up, as well.

So why is it called Sticky Keys? It's because in the predecessor of XSI, Softimage|3D, you had to hold down a key while using tools. So new in XSI, you had this new thing where you could press and release a tool key, and it would "stick". Brand new concept! (See? you always had that, Nerve Center! :biggrin:)

nemac4

03-29-2008, 03:37 AM

Mash

04-20-2008, 03:17 AM

I'll throw in a couple of cents.
I'm sharing this in the hopes it may give someone some ideas.
One of the biggest advantages and least understood tools in Modo is the interface. It can be set up very easily and saved and those layouts can be loaded just as fast.
One thing I use a lot is pie menus.
I've made custom menus and assigned them to the 1,2,3 keys. I want to access to my most commonly used vertex tools, hit the 1 key, Edge tools 2, ploy tools 3 etc.
I can display those text list or with Icons. That way I don't have to go hunting in panels for tools.
Once you get this idea you can find things very fast.

The best way to explain it is to watch the following videos and maybe it will make more sense.
Notice in the first video that all the tools to arrange the UI are accessible within the UI itself at all times.

Customizing the interface for modo

http://content.luxology.com/community/user_tutorials/AndyBrown/My_UI.mov

Setting up Pie menus. He goes through a few extra steps in setting up the pie menus. You can also just right click on a form in the form editor and assign it to a key.

http://content.luxology.com/community/user_tutorials/AndyBrown/Who_ate_all_the_pies.mov