ICE compared to C4D xpresso?

[AlanMc]

Can someone give me some insight if ICE will be able to so the sort of node connections as C4D's xpresso? I've found xpresso to be really easy to set up animations in the past.

Regards,
Alan

[scaron]

explain to me what expresso can do

s

[onedeadpixel]

Uhm...i can try to give some aspects but until i try ICE i can only reply on what i've seen from the videos.
Xpresso and ICE seem very close to each others. They both work with nodes, nodes groups and everything can be animated with them.

On C4D you can set up Xpresso chains simply dragging every object in the Xpresso Table, give it standard and custom entries creating User Data Fields. There are a lot of different nodes for each aspect such as Operators, Math operators, Conversion and so on...at this point they seem pretty close to each other. What can i say on ICE is that seems more elegant.....

http://www.maxon.net/pages/images/products/cinema4d/highlights/xpresso/xpresso_1_e.jpg

[thiago]

Uhm...i can try to give some aspects but until i try ICE i can only reply on what i've seen from the videos.
Xpresso and ICE seem very close to each others. They both work with nodes, nodes groups and everything can be animated with them.

On C4D you can set up Xpresso chains simply dragging every object in the Xpresso Table, give it standard and custom entries creating User Data Fields. There are a lot of different nodes for each aspect such as Operators, Math operators, Conversion and so on...at this point they seem pretty close to each other. What can i say on ICE is that seems more elegant.....

http://www.maxon.net/pages/images/products/cinema4d/highlights/xpresso/xpresso_1_e.jpg

ICE is quite different in design and functionality.
While Xpresso has some of the math nodes and few logic and iterators, you still can't do it all when building complex tools with it.

ICE comes from internal XSI arrays and low level data manipulation, it has all the programming capabilities that you could use to build complex particle systems and deformations (for now).

Xpresso is not a core feature in the sense that objects are born with attributes like in ICE, these attributes can define dynamics properties such as PointVelocity, Volume, Mass, Friction etc.... Or just a PolygonArea or a EdgeLength.
You can create new attributes too, setting your own attributes in objects is a way to store states of an specific data set.
So the way you use it is completely different.

You could use low level math to drive point positions (of a particles, poly or curve), and not just establish relations between them. Is also mixed with high level nodes like you can plug a Rigid Body solver into a curve object and make this curve interact with another type of object, but in the same environment.
Another example: you could drive the weights of a weightmap, using the closest distance of point positions of another mesh. Or use a raycast node to determinate if an object is crossing the ray of another object. Even a particle hitting the point of a mesh could deform a point.
Ddynamically speaking it's possible to create a "object <----> object" relation where they influence each other simultaneously. If an ICEtree lives in the simulation region, the incremental nature of simulation region would build the effect over time...

This is just a few of the basic concepts in XSI7 that brings ICE to another level compared to Xpresso.

Plus the gigapoly core in XSI that let you go far with more data... and all the stuff running multithreded... etc.
With all this math nodes that you can see in ICE:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=650549&page=7&pp=15
It became possible to create a Hair system or a Verlet cloth equation or a quaternion envelope that can run multi-threaded, without need to type a line of code or write a single expression.
A compiled C++ node in ICE will run multi-threaded too, but that's not necessary most part of the time since the speed between a compiled code and an ICEtree is pratically the same.

I would say that Xpresso is very inspired in a visual expression editor.
I don't see how Xpresso could create a raw array, pop values from it building a new array with some math operation, then setting it all that back into a custom attribute per point of my polymesh.
And after that I could just plug this into a curve/particle, and it would work in the same way because it's all in a unified environment.

Hope this can make ICE a bit more clear for ya.

[ThE_JacO]

There is a very simple answer to this question:
If xpresso was anywhere close to ICE, like some people on another site would like us to believe, maxon wouldn't be needing to charge an arm and a leg for TP as a module, they wouldn't even need to offer it at all in fact.

The interface and the scalability of ICE make it a breed of its own, regardless of how innovative nodes are or aren't (they were last innovative with illusion and prisms in themselves). On top of that there are other things that set it apart from other applications.

Sorry if this sounds somewhat snappy, but the family of the dead horse implores forum dwellers to give the corpse back after it's been beaten to a pulp because of feature jealousy (in venues other than this one, this thread is fine :) )

[Francky]

You do realize that C4D is ALL modular, right ? Thinking Particles is sold separately for the simple reason that some might not need it, so they aren't force to buy That module. As far as costing an Arm and a leg, it's only 400$, not expensive for a complete Particle system. One that rivals XSI's.

The big difference I'd say between Ice and Expresso is 3 things.

Integration. XSI themselves said that for now, ICE is limited in what it can do, as it can only deform objects and create particles, more or less. Expresso on the other hand is completely integrated in C4D. It can pretty much control any aspect of C4D and is not limited to particles and deformations. (Which is why it can come with the core of C4D Without TP, since it's still plenty useful)

Speed. XSI's Gigapolygon core and it's multi threading performance, gives ICE a huge Speed Advantage compared to Expresso. (and I do mean HUGE, damn is C4D slow :|)

Community. Maxon is for a lack of a better term, lazy, they've created Expresso, about 5 years ago (or more) Something that at the time was amazing. Yet no one knew about it and they let it rot basically. They Never pushed it, they didn't create a forum like this one where people can exchange ideas and work flows. They release it and forgot about it, never improving it or talking about it all over the net, like XSI did with ICE. On the other hand XSI right away realized that such a tool is pointless if people can't share ideas about it and talk about it. This in my view is what makes ICE so much better. As we will be able to talk about it on an Official forum, and even have access to pre made code, That's what is the Game changer in my book. Better integration to XSI will come eventually, but this forum will allow people to flourish in using ICE. Something Maxon never did.

I had switched to C4D a year ago, but version 7 is probably going to bring me back to XSI. If only XSI ran on a Mac :( lol

[onedeadpixel]

Of course my observations were on first sight, just looking at what came out from the videos. I must admit i've not gone in deep with ICE, and with Xpresso too, and so i can't explain better than you've done guys ( Thiago sorry for this but at a certain point i missed you on the road of a certain array....:D)

What i can say is that Xpresso in built in the core of C4D too and the "modus operandi" seems the same...far from this i was stating they are the same. :hammer:
From the Maxon policy POV i must agree with you since i've never seen a decent implementation in tutorials or communities. What came out it's only Cineversity....

Cheers

[DAVID:-D]

I would end this thread with this : the difference is very BIG. Xpresso do not work under XSI :winkiss:.


I mean all the threads about if its more powerful, better implemented and so on, has no sense since you would like keep working in XSI for other more reasons, right ?

ICE is a great tool what was missing for long time in XSI. Also with that tool I should say the sharing community will grow and we will see great presets with great tools. Its more open, more playful ........ so why those stupid question if its better or worse then what ?

[Francky]

I don't see why it's a stupid question. Someone coming from C4D could be curious and want to know if ICE would be a better choice for them. I come from both, using C4D now, but keeping an eye out for my options. Discussing what ICE could bring to expresso users is Not a bad thing in any way.

Also, I'd suggest keeping it civil David ;)

[DAVID:-D]

I don't see why it's a stupid question. Someone coming from C4D could be curious and want to know if ICE would be a better choice for them. I come from both, using C4D now, but keeping an eye out for my options. Discussing what ICE could bring to expresso users is Not a bad thing in any way.

Also, I'd suggest keeping it civil David ;)

I apology, I think I was answering on one thread seen at CGTalk pointing on Xpresso vs. ICE and strange discussion about. Thought it goes in same way here, without too much reading this thread. :no:

GRRR... what a miss

[onedeadpixel]

I don't think it's going in the usual SOMETHING VS SOMETHING war here. :sweatdrop:

I'm a C4D user and since i'm following XSI from about version 5 for its wonderful workflow and animation capabilities ( in first place for me ) and since now i've choosen Modo as modeling and texturing package i've matured the decision to switch to XSI for the rest of the pipeline.

I've red a lot about the Foundation loss and so i'm curious to learn what i need to know about the present XSI to switch. Xpresso has always been a tool i use, even at a basic level, because it gave me the possibiliy to use Custom Nodes for controlling animation at multiple levels and also controlling material properties over time in a simple manner besides the standard Material Manager ( felt like a bit of the render tree :D).
So i was curious to explore ICE capabilities and if can simplify what always has scared me of XSI : its tremendous amount of variables ! :helpsmilie:
Cheers :)